Numbering2 list style not starting at 1

[dylan]

Why in the name of any living god would anyone continue list numbering across multiple lists except in exceptional circumstances? And yet that is the default that seemingly cannot be changed. Look at this:

I can Start at 1 or 11111 and that list item will always start at b. The next level-2 list continues from the last item of the previous one. And if I start a new level-1 list, same thing - it starts at 5 in this case.

So if Start at is not the parameter to define at what value to start a new list, what is??

(And can anyone tell me a use case where you’d create, say, a technical manual where each list level retains continuous numbering? Imagine page 437 with a list starting at 4,322 and the sublist at eab!)

[ajlittoz]

I feel you haven’t grasped the idea that all lists in Writer are multi-level. Your screenshot suggests you have defined 2 lists: one for level 1, one for level 2. When doing this, they are independent and when you break in level 1, this is not forwarded to the other list at level 2.
Attach your sample file.

[dylan]

I feel you haven’t grasped the idea that all lists in Writer are multi-level.

I have this horrible feeling that you’re completely right.

I interpreted List1, List2, … as ‘list at level 1’, ‘list at level 2’, … I got this idea because of the List1 start and List1 continuous. Are you saying that in fact List1 is just one definition of a list structure, with all levels included? And so (for example), I could define List1 continuous identically to List1 but without the bullet - for all levels.

If this is true, I need a large pot of tea.

(Is there an easy way to roll back all changes I made to List1 etc. ?!)

[ajlittoz]

Yep, List 1 when attached to a list style like Bullet ⋅ can be used for levels 1-10. List n are there to allow you to define 5 independent 10-level lists (each with its own set of bullets so that you can tell at first sight they are lists with different meanings).

Roll back all changes: it depends on the importance of the changes. You may try Reset to Parent button but it will also erase all factory settings different from List (the parent). You can then fastidiously copy the settings from a blank document (very tedious because you can’t have two active style definitions simultaneously open. By active, I mean the ability to jump from one tab to the other.

[mlbphd]

Hi guys - I’ve ironically just posted sort-of about the same thing. I am dyslexic an dwhile I approciate the explanation here - I am gettin gbrain-twisted on the ‘List name’ nomenclature. Is there a video or something very basic?

Or do you know a freelancer I can hire to help me?

Kind thanks - sorry to jump on your thread!

Martyn

[dylan]

Yep, I defined my list set in five minutes - which is what I expected in the first place.

I now have one set with my preferred bullets and one with my preferred numbering.
(I made a copy of Numbering4, which I didn’t mangle. Later, I will start from scratch and define a ‘clean’ template based on factory settings, once I know what I’m doing.)

However, I still see two anomalies:

1. It’s still not restarting the numbering on creating a new list (level 1):

This happens even after new header with a page break. I see no way to correct this, as I already have Start at set to 1. I can toggle the ‘restart numbering’ button, but how do I set restart numbering to default (again, the standard case 99% of the time)?

2. I assume the List cont. style is used to add a new paragraph inside a list item without the bullet/number? But how do I set the indents for each level? Since I have ‘no list’ for the bullet/number, I can’t edit the style and set the indents in Position. So it only works for level 1 and after that is unusable.

Any ideas?

[dylan]

Hi Mlbphd, no problem jumping in the thread - I’m glad I’m not the only one to find this very confusing.
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As I understand it (finally), each set of List x and Numbering x represents a separate, independent definition of a list hierarchy, including 10 levels:

1. Level1
   …a. Level 2
   …,… i. Level 3

For each level, you can define the number symbol or the bullet graphic, plus all the indents.
.
What I believe is that List Start and List End should be made identical to the above - all they do is add some space above a list item (List Start) and below a list item (List End), to start and end a list, respectively. I just defined them now and it took a minute - they were already identical to my custom List x, I literally didn’t change anything.
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The part I can’t figure out is List x Cont.. I guess this is for additional paragraphs in a list item, and you want to align them correctly - that is, at the same indentation after the bullet/number. But I can’t get it to work.
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So stick around, maybe we’ll figure this out. @ajlittoz is a trouper and is pointing us in the right direction

[ajlittoz]

I can’t guess what you want. Should the 4. be a 1. (restart list there)?

xx n, xx n Cont., xx n End and xx n Start are “buddy” paragraph styles which are supposed to share the same the same list style. They allow for slight variations in item formatting such as larger “above” spacing at list start or larger “below” spacing at end of list before resuming common discourse. These variations must be configured by user as there is no agreed rule about them. These are two understandings about xx n Cont.: either provide a consistent unnumbered item (then xx n is numbered) or provide a numbered item (in which case xx n is not numbered). Making a consistent level indent is quite tricky in this case and usually requires a second list style to succeed. My trick to set level indents is to use a space bullet.

[dylan]

I can’t guess what you want. Should the 4. be a 1. (restart list there)?
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Seriously. Do you really expect to see something like this?
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Page break, header 1 - and the list continues from the previous page? The only time I would expect to see a list continue is if I inserted a graphic between two list items (for example). Otherwise, always start a new list. I mean, this is very very basic standard behaviour in Word, Flare, Framemaker, Markdown, Asciidoc. What on earth is the advantage of setting the default to something no one would ever do?
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xx n, xx n Cont., xx n End and xx n Start are “buddy” paragraph styles
Very true for End and Start, it was completely automatic. But not Cont. If it’s a buddy style, why does it completely ignore the indents that the others obey?
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Here is my list from levels 2 to 4:
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Note that the tab arrow indicates the Cont. indents - exactly the same for each level. Here is my indent defintions per level:
.




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As you can see from level 3 and 4, I can insert indents measured in kilometers, and it just gets ignored.
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I gave up on it, and defined a second number style (based on Numbering 4, not Cont) with a space bullet. Same as above, it just applies exactly one indent, seemingly at random.
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Please let me know what “space bullet” you used (in the xx n Cont. style??) that you managed to get the spacing right for continuous list items. I don’t mind fiddling with the indents, this would take a few minutes, but when the indents are all ignored…?

[anon87010807]

My, this is amazing. It seems that the idea of list styles was invented to simplify making long and nested lists that continue throughout a document, but that the developers never thought of people wanting something simple like consistently format a list of items to be referred to by number later on, starting numbering at 1 every time. End rant.

I played somewhat with the list styles UI and found some oddities.

1. For some reason, paragraph styles List 1 Start, List 1 Cont and List 1 End are all derived from List instead of List 1, but that might be an error in my default template. If the List 1 xxx styles are derived from List 1, that doesn’t make any sense.
2. For some other reason, you can’t select the list level in the paragraph style UI, which also doesn’t make sense. You either have to use the tab key for each line to set it to the proper list level, a lot of work, or use the toolbar button, which reeks of direct formatting. It’d be so much better if you could define a List 1 Level 2 paragraph style, where you set the list level to 2 right away.
3. Lastly, you can’t reset the numbering. In fact, you can, if you set the Number field on the Customize tab to None for Level 1 and then use level 2 for the actual numbering, and precede or close each numbering by one paragraph with the same numbering style with list level 1. But while that does actually work as a workaround, it also doesn’t make sense.

See sample document.

liststyles.odt (11,7 KB)

[ajlittoz]

Comments on @anon87010807:

1. All xxx n yyy are derived from List, not from xxx n. This offers initially more freedom in allowing more “independence” between the variants. In addition, if you display the style side pane in hierarchical mode (as I do), the styles are more readily accessible. But you can reconfigure them to be derived from xxx n if your graphic charter is defined so. I think the present “flat” hierarchy comes from the lack of a clear definition of the purpose of xxx n vs. xxx n Cont.. I remember a long debate with @oweng about it but can’t spot it due to the mess with the current site engine.

2. Lists in Writer are always multi-level and “formatting homogeneous”. This means items at any level are formatting the same (except for indentation). This is part of fundamental design decisions. Having a different paragraph style in different levels is what is offered by Tools>Chapter Numbering where you can designate a specific style at each level. The Heading n family is nothing other than a list with the additional property of level variation. Have you ever tried to type Tab or Shift+Tab at start of a heading? You get exactly the same behaviour as with ordinary list with the magic bonus of style change.
   Personally, I’d like to have both definition possibilities for my lists: present lists and heading-like lists. I’ll file an enhancement request when I’ve time and ideas sufficiently clear to write a specification. I feel everything is readily in place to make the feature available without big impact on the code.

3. You can reset the numbering without the hassle you describe which require to add a semantically dummy paragraph to “advertise” the start of a new list. With the cursor in the first item, Format>Lists>Restart Numbering.

[ajlittoz]

@dylan

Screenshots never replace an attached documents because attributes don’t print onscreen.

List restart: what is your definition of list extent? It is always possible to have different paragraph styles between two list items. They could be explanations or comments and therefore part of the list although unnumbered. Writer doesn’t know where auxiliary data for an item ends. Consequently, it can’t decide on its own where to end a list.
You, as an author, must tell Writer where a new list start with Format>Lists>Restart Numbering. In case you switch two items, don’t forget to remove the flag on the now second item and flag the new first.

Your settings in levels 3 and 4 are faulty.
For level 3, alignment is larger than page width. Number/bullet is sent there but will be invisible. Text item will start at indent on next line because tab stop is too far away (standard line wrap when right margin is reached).
For level 4, alignment is nominal. Tab send position too far away, triggering line wrap and item starts at its indent (2 cm).
The indent is not random, it is just as you defined it.
For optimal list rendering, I recommend to set Tab stop at to same value as Indent.

Once again, for better diagnostic, attach a sample file.

[anon87010807]

I’m sorry, but I’m not impressed. So you can actually reset the list numbering. Great. Why did the developers hide that bit so well? Seriously, I consider almost everything in the Format menu as direct formatting, and when you think about it, resetting list numbering is not formatting, just as updating fields isn’t. Updating fields sits on the Tools menu, and the tools to reset list numbering and toggle list levels should be there too. It’s totally un-obvious that the Numbering and Lists toolbar isn’t completely direct formatting but can be used on styled lists as well. This part of LibreOffice is almost as bad as writing macros (because that’s really only useful for hardcore programmers and not for average users of office software who want to automate something), but that’s off-topic.

[ajlittoz]

@anon87010807: I agree with you that list formatting desperately needs more serious theoretical thought about it.
Regarding “reset numbering”, I think it should be some property of paragraph style, so that you can have a first-item style explicitly stating you start a list (and thus request number reset), linked to running-item style (for automatic switch).
It took me a while to realise that numbering reset was not an ordinary direct formatting (it is not cleared by Ctrl+M). Moreover, not being controlled by some style attribute, it complicates item reordering where you must clear it on now-no-longer-first item and set it on new-first item. Real fuss.

Promoting and demoting items (changing their level) is OK for me with Tab and Shift+Tab.

[mlbphd]

Hey, indeed. thanks for the welcome!

ajilottoz gave and incredibly easy to follow answer also here: Outline Numbering Styles - help - #2 by ajlittoz

Hope that also helps!

Happeny New Year or as we say in Scotland “Hogmanay”

Martyn