Cleanly cut/past list item

Word and now Writer has always perplexed me as to how to cleanly cut and paste items in a list. I invariably cut something, usually just the text, and then have to try a few insertion points, and then patch everything up, getting rid of dangling empty items and breaking merged items – a real mess. It seems as if list items are not an “object” in the object document model that can be simply cut/copied/pasted.

So, can someone please inform me as to how to cleanly cut and then paste a list item? What do i select (include/exclude list decoration and/or paragraph symbol) and where do I insert (before/after list decoration or paragraph, of previous/following paragraph/item)?

Thanks
–jon

If do you only needs to reorder items in a not-so-long list, try with Ctrl+Alt+Up/Down Arrow.

Your question is in fact very generic: what kind of ancillary meta-information is copied and transferred with Copy & Paste? And, you’re right, this is exacerbated with list items.

I’d say that the complexity of the operation depends on your formatting skill. If you work extensively with styles, you’ll suffer less problems than with direct formatting and far less than with mixed formatting (styles + direct).

It also depends on the range of the selected sequence.

Rule 1: initial state

Formatting state at start of the sequence will define the inital state when pasting. Formatting state is made of paragraph style, character style and direct formatting at start of the selection. This state is part of copied information.

At the paste location, you also have some formatting state: character and direct formatting (paragraph style is ignored). Paste information takes precedence over the existing state. Paragraph style is unaffected because it is not part of state information. Character style replaces the one in effect, as does direct formatting if some existed in the copied sequence.

But, if your starting state at paste location (destination) had some direct formatting and none was defined at copy location (source), this direct formatting will hide eventual pasted character style and take precedence (DF always hides character style which hides paragraph style). This change in formatting always surprises newbies but it a natural consequence of precedence rules.

To avoid this problem, don’t direct format and always work with styles.

Rule 2: formatting changes are transferred

If your selected sequences contains style applications, such as character styles or direct formatting, the extent of style application is honoured. This means character styles or direct formatting stop their effect at their end boundary.

Rule 3: full paragraphs are unaffected

When your sequence contains paragraph marks, this is equivalent to a formatting change via some paragraph style. The pasted paragraph style replaces the one in effect at the destination location. Full paragraphs are then transferred unaltered. After the last paragraph mark in paste data, you’re back in rules 1 & 2 context.

Now how does this behave with list items?

If you copy only item text, i.e. you don’t include the paragraph mark, you’re under rules 1 & 2 which ignore paragraph formatting. Since numbering is part of the paragraph layer, numbering is not transferred to paste location because you have no paragraph.

Alternatively, if your selection include the final paragraph mark, rule 3 applies and you get a numbered list item, sometimes with an extra empty paragraph after it according to where you pasted.

Apparently, it does not matter whether numbering is done with direct formatting or style.

You seem to be familiar with Word. I want to draw your attention on the fact that Word has an insufficiently defined specification in a lot of formatting areas (in short, it knows only of paragraph styles and direct formatting, no character, page, frame or list styles). To ease conversion, Writer offers a one-size-fits-all compatibility feature for list formatting through Format>Bullets & Numbering or the equivalent toolbar buttons. This is unfortunate because the implementation has to face a lot of ambiguities. They are not apparent but lead you into “surprises” when you edit your lists with copy and paste. To avoid problems, prefer Writer list styles (badly names because they don’t format a list; they only define the properties of the number/bullet and need to be applied to some paragraph as associated to a style or direct format).

Proper use of list styles go beyond this question, so I’ll deliberately omit the discussion to keep the answer simple.

In case you have other questions, always mention OS name, LO version and save format.

And that was the simple answer:-)

To make this even simpler, the only “style” I’m interested in is “list”. I just want to be able to cleanly cut and paste a list item, regardless of formatting and style (if it comes along for the ride great, but I can work on that later). You mention being able to select the paragraph mark. I see them but am unable to select them. Could this be the root of my trouble?

Version: 7.5.4.2 (X86_64) / LibreOffice Community
Build ID: 36ccfdc35048b057fd9854c757a8b67ec53977b6
CPU threads: 4; OS: Windows 10.0 Build 19045; UI render: Skia/Raster; VCL: win
Locale: en-US (en_US); UI: en-US
Calc: threaded

Thanks
–jon

Excuse me for an unfortunate copy’n’paste which made my answer totally obscure. I fixed it.

A list is not a style by itself. Some text becomes a list item after you attach a special attribute to it. This text is formatted traditionally by a paragraph style to defined indents, spacing, font properties, colour, … The special attribute references a list style (I repeat it, the name is ill-chosen) which describes the number: where to display it, its sequence (numeric, alphabetic, ordinal, …), indentation of the various levels, … Of course, everything can be specified by direct formatting but I don’t recommend it. Styles allow you to automate your writing job and, most important, to guarantee formatting consistency all over the document. In addition styles separate writing (author’s responsibility) from formatting (graphical artist’s job). In addition with styles, you can radically change document layout without ever editing contents! You the only play with styles configuration.

Since the list attribute is an extension of the paragraph style, you must copy and paste the paragraph mark.

Yes. I guess you have not enabled the various visual clues to report what really makes your document. Go to the View menu and enable Formatting Marks, Test Boundaries, Table Boundaries, Images & Charts, Show Whitespace and Field Shadings. These clues don’t print; you can keep them permanently enabled.

Paragraph marks display as a pilcrow (mirrored P).

If you come from Word, be careful about the difference between paragraph mark Enter and line break Shift+Enter which displays as an angled arrow to left. Word is not very picky about it but Writer has a more rigorous and stricter specification.


The chore of Writer is styles. I encourage you to read the Writer Guide for an introduction and to practice on scratch documents. Avoid direct formatting as it leads to formatting hell.

OK. Thanks for the info.

BTW: Did you ever have a chance to use FrameMaker, back in the early 90’s? It ran on Sun workstations. With little training I and others as software developers were able to produce quite sophisticated user manuals and such. It was the ultimate WYSIWYG experience with heavy emphasis on a good document object model with extensive support for styling and illustrations. It really was a joy to use because there was little guessing as to what was being selected, cut, copied, moved and pasted, including the styling. In fact, since styling was itself an object attached to the text, you could copy the style “mark” and apply it to other text as needed. I never recall having a problem with lists and such when using it. Seems that Microsoft came along with Word, muddled the whole concept of WYSIWYG and document modeling, and forever poisoned everyone’s notion of what a good word processor feels like. So it goes.

I used FrameMaker on Mac, yes in the early 90s. I should rather say “experimented with it” as I had no urge with documents and was really busy with my professional life.

I wouldn’t say “M$ came along with Word” as Word predates FM. It was a “reasonable” alternative to very limited Apple MacWrite and was later ported to other OS’s. Unfortunately the dominant postition (monopolistic in fact) associated with FUD propagande didn’t call for innovation and rigorous concepts.

In Writer, formatting is not a user-entry object. The equivalent concept is style which is metadata. You apply it to a selected object (paragraph, character, page, frame). You can’t copy’n’paste it unless the selection contains a paragraph mark because the paragraph metadata is conceptually attached to the mark, just like in Word.

Your “good document” model is in fact a collection of styles which you put together in a template (a special form of document with a dedicated extension and special properties).