Custom numbered list style, demote 2 level was necessary

.ott document
LO 7.5.9 for Linux
Style-based writing, direct formatting at lowest possible level.

Document problematic block reproduced:

  1. This paragraph uses custom paragraph style linked to custom numbered list style, level 1, no restarting of numbering, list number customization: start at 1 as default, no further customization. All is fine with this paragraph, paragraph indentation out of scope as for this question
    1.1 This paragraph uses same list style as above one, level 2, no restarting of numbering, list number customization: start at 1 (default), show sub-levels 2, remaining fields not touched, indentation out of scope as for this question
    1.2 Same properties as 1.1 however assigned to level 2 and show sub-levels 2, indentation out of scope

All three paragraphs are in real document one-liner each, the ‘headings’ in true sense of this wording. Only the description makes them here to multi-liner.
There was a problem with 1.1 and 1.2, these were presented in following way:
It was necessary to do context menu > Demote Outline Level for both second and third paragraph from top in order to get presentation as preview in list style customization tab:
This is the form which author desires to be for these 3 paragraphs.

What should author conclude from observation made (should this be one lesson for author, major or minor)?
In past made probably some mistake regarding formatting?
Before got it fixed using Demote Outline Level those 3 paragraphs were examined in Style Inspector for presence of direct formatting. Only DF one had found resulted probably from list style assignment - hence no faulty DF could be identified that point of time.
After numbering in above way paragraphs got fixed two and three from top exhibit same set of direct formatting as before fix - probably due to list style assignment - no alerts for author.

What is the question exactly?

When you apply a paragraph style associated to a list style, the item is assigned level 1 because Writer knows nothing about your intent. Usually, this is right. You always start a list at its outermost level.

When you hit Enter, you request the creation of a new item at same level as the present one, again because this is th most frequent usage. If you want to change level, you must manually promote or demote the item by pressing Tab or Shift+Tab.

There is no possible automation here because Writer can’t read your mind.

The case is different with heading numbering with Heading n. This family of styles has additional specific properties resulting from the configuration in Tools>Heading Numbering. This configuration makes possible to:

  • assign a different paragraph style to each level
  • automatically select the appropriate level from paragraph style application (thanks to previous configuration)

Document author created first paragraph and assigned custom paragraph style heading 1 to it, latter one is linked to custom list style, level 1.
In next step author created one more paragraph and assigned custom paragraph style heading 2 to it, latter one is linked to same custom list style, however list numbering level 2.
In the end author created third paragraph and assigned custom heading 2 paragraph style heading 2 to it, latter one is linked to same custom list style, list numbering level 2.

Document author’s expectation: when above three steps are completed the list should look like this

1. list entry 1
1.1 sub-list entry 1
1.2 sub-list entry 2

with no additional editorial steps be necessary.

Observation made in real was, author had to apply Demote Outline Level additionally to get expected presentation of list.

Things presented here continued down to numbered list level 3. Formerly author set list formatting of mentioned list style only for first 3 levels as all lists this kind in document are not going to use more than 3 levels.

Author wonders if observation made should be treated as a feedback There was something wrong with your formatting in past, therefore the manual demoting was necessary to provide you with list styling meeting your expectations.

Your description is not clear (problem of fluency in English; what is your native language? If it’s one I can read, it could be better).

What I understand: author mixed Heading n with paragraphs associated to custom list style and expects level from Heading n to be forwarded to custom list. Yhis doesn’t work and will never work: different list styles create independent lists.

If you want consistent hierarchical numbering, all list items must be numbered with the same list style*.

In case I didn’t understand, attach a sample file.

I am sorry for unclear language.

Your understanding matches this case accurately, cit. “…assigned custom paragraph style heading 2 to it, latter one is linked to same custom list style…”.
To put it in other words: author assigned custom paragraph style heading 2 to current paragraph, paragraph style heading 2 is linked to same custom list style as previous (or parent) list item.

Attach a sample file. If you associated a custom list style to Heading 2 while it is still attached to the internal heading numbering style, you created a mess.

You are right, creating regular list and using “heading x” paragraph styles is a mess. Myself failed however to mention one point, sorry for this. I am on creation of paragraph styles structure for chapter, sub-chapter, sub-sub-chapter headings (three-level chapter structure).
Chapter and sub-chapter headings are planned to be numbered. I believe heading styles (regardless of the question if stock- or custom ones) and list need in such a case to be used.

Anyhow mentioned paragraph styles (heading x) are custom paragraph styles. Myself intentionally uses the name heading x instead of Heading x.

Note that with experimental features enabled, it is possible to associate paragraph style not only with a list style, but also with its level:

For chapter numbering, use built Heading n and customise numbering to your needs in Tools>Heading Numbering.

Creating custom heading styles with automatic numbering is possible but you’ll never get the automatic assignment to level according to effective paragraph style. This is a special property specific to Heading n through Tools>Heading Numbering.

@mikekaganski This is fantastic good news. I have hoped for such a feature for a very long time. In which release is it available (for testing)? Do you need to enable some “lock”?

It appeared first in 7.6. I’m still trying to recall which bug and change was that.

tdf#62032, commit d6851533713850b311c5c8121d91dc96ab94286c.

Thanks for information. It’s hard for me to judge right now how helpful it for my current writing may be.

Anyhow, what I need is the stability, maturity, productivity. Not ready to experiment. Burdens already encountered in their amount suffice. Therefore, as for current writing, myself will stick with 7.5.9.

I will need those anyway. Document will have three logical parts

  • Front matter - cover, declarations, preface, TOC, set of indices
  • Sequence of chapters
  • Back matter - bibliography, appendices, tables of terms, acronyms, abbreviations

Each logical part gets own page numbering style, level 1 chapter numbering formatting. Eventually few further too.

Then stick with built-in Heading n. Design consistent custom heading styles is already advanced task. You must thoroughly understand all interactions between style categories and effects of settings in style configuration. Not speaking of the procedural idiosyncrasies like promoting/demoting list item.

Page numbering type is distinct from chapter numbering. Page numbering style is configured in page style. Your outline (i.e. the organisation of your chapters, sub-chapters, …) is controlled by Tools>Heading Numbering for the number and Heading n for the look.

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Good to know thanks for hint.

My plan is to make child paragraph style from Heading 1 to Heading 3 then to use these for chapter numbering and chapter headings - text styling provided by Writer stock-headings has good chance to not meet my taste. Plan includes further more the appropriate replacement in Chapter Numbering. Outline and chapter structure no deeper than 3 levels.

On another hand those points myself communicates in my previous comment are still valid.

Built-in styles have nothing special. Feel free to modify them at will. If “text styling” in Heading n does not meet your taste, change it. By changing only the look, you’ll still benefit from the default configuration in Tools>Heading Numbering. This is one functionality you won"t have to recreate, with all the possible errors until you master completely the style engine.

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I got it. Thanks.
My plan has/had at this point following rationale (anyhow I got it that following my plan is has high chance to be, in end-effect, costly and charged by high risks of troubles):
While on writing the need may sometimes arise on my side to check how far yet at which points my own modifications deviate from the form as Writer installer provided, but from which my style was derived. If it is parent-child relation such comparison may be easier to conduct than two styles named same way but stored to two different documents.

Anyhow, my document still seems to need custom heading styles. It does it for merely to front matter and the back matter.

This is how this discussion started.

I don’t understand your insistance for different heading styles for front/back matter.

Headings are use to structure your book into chapters, … The main purpose of Heading n is to capture heading contents for the TOC.

Your need may be:

  • exclude a few headings from the TOC
    Solution is either to direct format the paragraphs to assign them Body Text or [None] outline level (depending on LO version) with all the subsequent problems with DF, or to derive a user-style from Heading n with only outline level set to Body Text or [None]. By changing nothing else, any modification you make to Heading n will also be forwarded to your derived style.
  • remove numbering from a few headings
    This is even simpler: put the cursor at beginning of heading and hit Bksp. No need for a separate paragraph style, much more reliable and user-friendly.

Don’t make your template unnecessarily complicated. The fewer styles, the better your are (easier to remember which does what, a leaner semantic markup, …).

Fully agree with this.

My presentations so far - it was a try to find set of means to achieve following goal.
On my desk is one a work completed certain time ago. I should use it as reference. Hence the aim to reproduce in my work conventions found in reference work. Front matter with headings not numbered, back matter with headings numbered but using different style (upper-case letters). Components of front matter not in TOC. Those of back matter on the contrary in TOC. Front matter, chapters, back matter - each uses own page numbering style (it is the question of used symbol sets merely). Page numbering restarts on transitions document logical part to next one, and doesn’t restart inside logical part.

Lesson learned: lists and chapter numbering are two different stories. One can implement chapter numbering using list however Write has a tool on board which is more comfortable in use: Chapter Numbering.
Outlining as yet other tool, it can be used in list, is used in chapter numbering, or can be used stand-alone.

I should continuously keep in mind my aim to minimize DF as far as possible

I know, this is only about dropping numbering in front matter. But the journey starts right now. Lot of work and time ahead of me (till arrival at target). Points like this will accumulate. For me it will be ongoing challenge to have senses for the style-based means on one, for DF on another side.