Outline numbering and ordered list, how bad is it to mix both?

[seduloususer]

Version: 25.2.1.2 (X86_64) / LibreOffice Community
Build ID: d3abf4aee5fd705e4a92bba33a32f40bc4e56f49
CPU threads: 8; OS: Windows 11 X86_64 (10.0 build 26100); UI render: Skia/Raster; VCL: win
Locale: fr-FR (fr_FR); UI: fr-FR
Calc: threaded

Ask-LO_FR_assignment-template-V5.odt (23.5 KB)

Hi everyone, thank you for taking the time to reply. English is not my main language - I will try my best but do forgive any awkwardness from me. See above for software information and attached example document.

I am a college student and have been using libreoffice (LO) for years (though I am still a noob). Whenever I had a question, I found help here and there and I wish to create a template that synthetizes all I have learned.

My question is: What are the consequences of mixing outline done with Tools>Chapter numbering and outline done with a numbered-list ?

My issue began when I needed to assign several paragraph styles to the same outline level: you can see in the attached document that I have three custom “heading+” styles, each being the same level. I did the outline with Tools>Chapter numbering and assigned the correct level to all my heading styles in the tab Edit style>Outline & list>Outline level>Assign desired level. However the separator (I.,II.,III., etc) would not show on these added styles.

I then began looking into solutions and found these posts particularly helpful:

Multiple paragraph styles per chapter numbering level

The answer is “yes”, but before going for a relatively complex task, think about your problem. If this is only a matter of “contextual” spacing, you can solve it elegantly by configuring your paragraph styles. You have two spacing parameters: Above and Below. Usually people customise only Above, leaving Below set to 0. Your context seems to be Heading 1 vs. Text Body may precede Heading 2. A wider space between Heading 1 and Heading 2 than between Text Body and Heading 2 is solved by setting…

Conditional paragraph formatting based on its associated outline level

Since version 7.6, there is a new experimental feature, related to tdf#62032. Namely, paragraph styles can be bound not only to list styles, but also to the specific levels of the selected style. This allows you to create different paragraph styles, one per list level, and assign them accordingly. Then, changing the outline level of the list, you would also get respective paragraph style automatically assigned. Note again: the feature is experimental, meaning it’s only available when you have e…

[Writer] How to have several numbering styles on Heading in the same document?

I finally found a more acceptable workaround to this question after thinking over the experiments I conducted with this other question. It tries to clarify already given answers with a recipe based on @petermau’s idea which unfortunately missed the point on the list style. It is still a workaround with serious drawbacks but it works: headings and TOC are automatically updated and remain consistent. Alternate headings Headings styles for the appendixes define their own hierarchy: they are cus…

In the attachment, outline is created from a numbered list, after removing the numbering in Tools>Chapter numbering I previously used. In a previous version I had both enabled: Tools>Chapter numbering for my level 1 and 4; a numbered list for level 2 and 3. This did not seem to have any consequences but they may simply be unseen and I wonder about any mishaps that could happen. Especially since @ajlittoz said:

@ajlittoz

Golden rule: never mix list numbering and chapter (outline) numbering.

So, how bad is it to mix both ?

Thanks again for your help.

[ajlittoz]

@seduloususer

My question is: What are the consequences of mixing outline done with Tools>Chapter numbering and outline done with a numbered-list ?

Catastrophic! This is related to the notion of list in Writer.

@seduloususer

My issue began when I needed to assign several paragraph styles to the same outline level:

Outline level and [list] numbering are independent from each other. And this makes things complicated when it comes to heading numbering.

The outline level governs what goes into the TOC, full stop. There is no idea of numbering. Paragraphs are collected in their order of appearance in text (more exactly, in order of document scanning – this makes a huge difference when you have text frames with “outlined” paragraphs, which should be avoided), as is, without being reworked beyond changing the applied paragraph style. If “outlined” paragraphs are numbered, the number is part of the collection; if they aren’t, it does not matter: they are used as is.

Tools>Heading Numbering provides access to a reserved internal list style which can’t be used outside Tools>Heading Numbering, thus protecting it from misuse. Heading numbers are members of a unique special list, ensuring consistent numbering, notably reset of higher levels when one increments.

This reserved list style can only be managed with Tools>Heading Numbering which allows a single paragraph style per [outline] level (note the added word “outline”). For user convenience, the implementation automatically forces a list level equal to outline level so that user needs not manually promote the paragraph to the required list level. Courtesy is even more friendly: if you change list level with Tab or Shift+Tab, Writer also adjusts outline level and thus paragraph style.

Now what happens if you mix paragraphs managed by heading numbering and paragraphs associated with some list style?

A Writer list is defined by its list style. With 2 list styles, you get 2 independent(ly-numbered) lists.They each live their own lives. Adding a Heading n paragraph has no impact on the other hierarchy, i.e. the second numbering sequence is not modified nor synchronised with the first.

Consequently, if you really need several different formatting at the same level, you should definitely discard heading numbering and use a custom list style applied to paragraph styles (with the loss of user-friendliness when it comes to promote the headings to the adequate level).

However, a list is supposed to be consistent across the document. Therefore, having several paragraph styles on the same level is antithetic with this consistency. Several paragraph on different levels is OK (after all, this is what heading numbering does) but not on a specific level.

Your MN/ heading xxx at level 2 are an example of this. You implement variations for page break, spacing or page number. All level-2 headings should be backed by the same semantics. The changes suggest the contrary. Technically, your usage is possible but have you thoroughly thought about the semantic meaning implied by the layout differences from a reader’s point of view?

[seduloususer]

Thanks for the quick reply.

@ajlittoz

The outline level governs what goes into the TOC, full stop. The is no idea of numbering.

My understanding is better now.

@ajlittoz

A Writer list is defined by its list style. With 2 list styles, you get 2 independent(ly-numbered) lists.They each live their own lives. Adding a Heading n paragraph has no impact on the other hierarchy, i.e. the second numbering sequence is not modified nor synchronised with the first.

Does that imply that modifications made (heading added for example) should be followed by manual adjustement of numbering ?

@ajlittoz

Several paragraph on different levels is OK (after all, this is what heading numbering does) but not on a specific level.

So there are only workarounds if really needed but should be avoided ?

@ajlittoz

Your MN/ heading xxx at level 2 are an example of this. You implement variations for page break, spacing or page number. All level-2 headings should be backed by the same semantics. The changes suggest the contrary. Technically, your usage is possible but have you thoroughly thought about the semantic meaning implied by the layout differences from a reader’s point of view?

May I ask you to elaborate on this passage ? I am not sure I fully grasp your point. Maybe I have a poor understanding of semantics ?

To clarify what I thought when creating the document: all my headings at level 2 have the same level of importance for the text and need only different appearances according to context. For example, I wanted my level 1 heading to be the sole text on a page so I need a page break, which is not needed after body text. I assumed multiple paragraphs could hold the same importance (same level/numbering) without a need for identical appearance.