Lists behavior, from Writer v.7.5 to .7.6 and 24.2

English
#1

Hi,

a recent message on a French board has raised a point: under Writer, an ordered list created using v.7.5 incorrectly shows in v.7.6 and v.2024.2. I don’t know if someone has already met this problem. I didn’t find any information in the different release notes nor in bug reports, thus I ask here for more contributions. Some misconceptions might be present as well.

Context:
– source is Windows or Linux, LibreOffice v.7.5 (on my test machine: LinuxMint, Cinnamon, LO 7.5.8.2)
– target is either OS, LibreOffice v.7.6 or 2024.2 (tested under VMs Windows 10 + LO v.7.6.5.1 / LXLE20.04 LO v.2024.2.0.3)

Testing:

  1. (Writer, v.7.5) Create a new document with a bunch of paragraphs.
  2. Set heading titles (style Heading 1)
  3. Set a new paragraph style “Exercice”, inheriting from “Text body”, without change.
  4. Create a new paragraph style (ie: “Question”) inheriting from “Exercice” and associate it to a list style (“Numbering 123”). Do not change any settings in both styles.
  5. Format paragraphs using both styles above: “Exercice” for normal text, “Question” for numbered questions.
  6. Demote some numbered paragraphs levels to 2 instead of 1.
  7. Save. (see attachment:
    Test_exercice_Patrick.odt (31.8 KB)
    and
    Capture d’écran du 2024-03-04 08-36-56
    Capture d’écran du 2024-03-04 08-36-561920×1080 225 KB

    .
  8. (Writer v.7.6 and 2024.2) Open the document.
    You find the content to badly behave: the list items do not respect the initial (default) settings (see
    Capture du 2024-03-04 08-42-48
    Capture du 2024-03-04 08-42-481920×918 239 KB

    ).(v.2024.2)

Notes:

  • Version numbers given above are the ones on my PC. Several other users have tested using various minor versions in each major version cited.

  • Strangely enough, when using a stock paragraph list style (ex: “Numbering 1 Cont.”) instead of a customized one (“Question”), the formatting remains between versions.

  • Changing the “Question” paragraph style to belong to “List styles” (instead of “Custom styles”), doesn’t change anything. Apart from that setting, I couldn’t find any difference between “Question” and “Numbering 1 Cont.” paragraph styles.

  • Exploring a little on both sides using the Styles Inspector, you find that v.7.6 and 2024.2 consider the list paragraphs and characters to be directly formatted. Thus, clearing the document direct formatting (or re-applying the “Question” paragraph style) returns to the original/wanted formatting. The Styles Inspector, though, still sees some remaining character direct formatting.

I guess a PEBCAK might be considered but I can’t see where. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

#2

Please enter the correct version numbers, in the form.
7.5.x.x
7.6.x.x
24.2.x.x
With LibreOffice open, go to the Help > About LibreOffice menu.
Click on the Version Information button, which inserts your data into the clipboard.
Paste the data here.
Thank you very much.

#3

I know that… I didn’t considered minor version numbers, since several board members have tested using various minor versions.
My versions are now updated in the OP.

#4

Hi. There is another question, Unwanted Paragraph Direct Formatting observed with LO 7.6.5.2, related to list styles being “converted” to direct formatting in 24.2 which might or might not be related but for which the OP created a bug report.

I can get incorrect level numbering in 24.2.0.1 also. I think you should create a separate bug report (possibly refer to the other report), How to Report Bugs in LibreOffice - The Document Foundation Wiki

Please post the bug report number back ere in the form of tdf#1234567

#9

There is already another bug report for 7.6: Bug 159366 - List styles add paragraph direct formatting on loading Writer document

1 Like
#10

@EarnestAl Thank you very much for the pointers, I had not found them at first.

I’ll open a new bug report, since I’m not sure to what extend the list behaviour is related to the problems already stated. I’ll keep this thread informed.

#5

You have indeed direct formatting. Don’t focus your attention on list style because the Style Inspector is still “experimental” in this area: it will always report lists as direct formatted.

Your direct formatting (DF) is at the paragraph level. You changed both left margin and first line indent and introduced a conflict with what is configured in the list style. In principle, the list style takes ownership of everything at left of paragraph. But since this rule is not understood by the vast majority of users, developers tweaked behaviour of both paragraph and list styles such that changing indents in the paragraph style retro-act on the list style. I think this creates more problems because this is yet another hidden rule.

I suppose that this DF was done after typing the first level-2 item. It then propagated when you hit Enter. Nevertheless, DF is very sticky and is sometimes difficult to detect. The newer release may be pickier on DF.

Ctrl+M (Clear Direct Formatting) plays only on paragraph and character properties. It has no action on list styles.

Always, always, always avoid direct formatting. Be very careful how you type your text. DF may fall on you when you expect the least.

#6

@ajlittoz This DF thing is very strange since I created the document and styles from scratch, then used them without any manual change. Thus, I don’t know where these 1st line indent and left margin changes come from.

Level-2 items: I formatted all paragraphs as level-1, then demoted the level-2 ones using the numbering toolbar “demote” button or tab.


BTW, I’m very used to styles usage and always promote them, insisting not to use DFs :slight_smile:

#7

The most stumping thing to me is why using a stock paragraph style (“Numbering 1 Cont.”) keeps the formatting between versions, while creating a custom one (“Question”) doesn’t?

Unwanted Paragraph Direct Formatting observed with LO 7.6.5.2
#8

I can’t tell because your sample file does not contain examples. But DF can occur in very unexpected sneaky ways. And this is easy both with lists and frames.

#11

@ajlittoz Here’s a version with “Numbering 1 Cont.” used instead of the custom “Question” paragraph style.

Note that this file was also created under v.7.5 from scratch, thus never knew of any other custom list style.
Test_exercice_Patrick_2.odt (34.2 KB)

This file opens OK under v.7.6 and 24.2.

#12

jfn “The most stumping thing to me is why using a stock paragraph style (“Numbering 1 Cont.”) keeps the formatting between versions, while creating a custom one (“Question”) doesn’t?”
.
After running a few tests, I think the reason might be:
.
Keep in mind the general rule to ONLY use list style Position values and leave associated paragraph style Indents untouched. (The paragraph style Indents are auto-updated by the associated list style).
.

Test_exercice_Patrick.odt (31.8 KB)
Paragraph style ‘Question’ inherits from paragraph style ‘Exercice’, however ‘Exercise’ already has an Indent of 4.99 mm applied. This is ignored in LO7.5 but not in LO7.6 and later. I believe the underlying cause is the unwanted Paragraph Direct Formatting.
.
Test_exercice_Patrick_2.odt (34.2 KB)
Paragraph style ‘Question’ has no inheritance and its Indent values are free to be updated by Position values in list style ‘Numbering ABC’. This works OK in LO7.5 and LO7.6 etc…

2 Likes
#13

@AllanR Wow! Thanks Allan for fine checking.

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