Modify "Bullet and Numbering" formating options

English
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#1

My problem

Menu Item: Format → Bullet and Numbering

  • I find it easy to use this formatting interface as it’s readily accessible from Writers user interface and an example format is shown.
  • However the predefined format options are not formats I often use, so would like to change them.
  • In the “Unordered” tab there is a “Change Bullet” button but not the equivalent in the “Ordered”, “Outline” or “Image” tabs. Is there a way of achieving equivalent functionality for the other tabs?
  • If LibreOffice does not currently support this, should it be changed to support it?

Some details

Looking at other ask.libreoffice.org entries
Default List Style
Change the formatting of default lists
set outline selection as default?
How to Modify Default Settings for Bullets
Outline Numbering Styles - help

The responses have focussed on

  • The “Bullet and Numbering” interface is easy to use but creates the equivalent of direct formatting so should not be used.
  • Using List / Paragraph styles is better because is ensures document consistency.
  • But “never mix list numbering and chapter (outline) numbering”. Which is confusing as List styles are used to make outline lists, Paragraph styles are used for hierarchically numbered headings / TOC. Paragraph styles can have a linked List style. Paragraph and List styles can be independently applied to text. All of which leaves the preferred default solution rather obscured.
  • If you use List / Paragraph styles you have to recreate your preferred formatting for each document or create a template for your preferred outline formatting and then manually import it when editing a document which does not contain your desired formatting and / or set up a template for new documents.

But that does not make sense to me as

  • The “Bullet and Numbering” user interface is much more accessible to infrequent users.
  • If it has to result in poor documents being produced, the interface should be removed. If it could produce documents which leverage LibreOffice functionality, it should be improved.
  • “Bullet and Numbering” could have the option to apply direct formatting or link to a List / Paragraph style, thus allowing the user to choose document consistency or list independence.

I maybe asking for something that is not currently supported by LibreOffice as if it was available, these Bugzilla entries could be readily resolved

Looking further it appears I’m not the only one who has noticed the issue and considerable work has already been done on it

#2

Mmmmh … Your post is not a request for help but looks rather like an invitation to discuss the philosophy to define “comfortable” way to implement list configuration.

List is a complex concept. And any interface proposal is made difficult by the domination of M$ Word which willy-nilly imposes its model upon the world (to the point that it is considered “intuitive”).

The starting point of the discussion is the workflow model of the application(s). Word and Writer radically diverge on this point. Word started practically simultaneously with the micro-computer revolution and offered features limited by the available power. Since it presented better features than the competition (compare for example to MacWrite), it quickly won public favour. It then evolved on its momentum without reconsidering its basics. Officially in order not to break usability of old documents (try now to open old Word 4.0 Mac documents and see how “compatible” they are).

Writer arrived much later and was born with a better specified document model based on styles (always perfectible, though). The consequence is a changed approach in workflow. However, it is known that humans hate to change habits. Thus to be able to gain notability, LO was doomed to accept “compatibility” breaks with its abstract model-induced workflow and provide M$-biaised control.

Bullets & Numbering is the archetypical example. It is wrong and bad. Unfortunately, list style, in addition to being a complex and thus difficult-to-understand concept, is totally unknown to most users who don’t grasp (or don’t want to “lose” time learning) the structural abstract requirements of any document, even a letter to aunt Martha. Just like any sentence must follow an agreed grammatical structure, generally with a subject, a verb and complements.

List styles have the advantage of clearly flagging the membership of items to a specific list “type”. Different list styles mean different “types” or significances. You’re only left with the command to restart numbering to separate various instances of groups in the same “type”.

In Word where you have no such list style, you are confronted to a double problem: separating different lists and restarting numbering of instances of a specific list, all with a single one-size-fits-all command. This causes maby difficulties when reviewing a document.

In an attempt to bridge the gap when switching from Word to Writer, LO developers implemented Bullets & Numbering à la Word, introducing many twists which creates many review issues. And the feature is patched over patches with time, making it behave worse (from my point of view) and accenting the “distance” between direct formatting and styling.

I am probably very partial towards full styling (as I converted to this approach after being confronting to the difficulties presented by large technical documents intended to be maintained on long term and facing changes in company graphical charter). I consider the main difficulty is an educational ones. Users must realise and accept that tools are different and have different workflow. Consequently, some initial time must be dedicated to learning, at lest reading user guides, at best experimenting on scratch documents.

Unfortuantely, yes

Can’t be removed. Just like direct formatting (DF) can’t be removed because DF is legitimate for “exceptional” (=one of a case) occurrences to avoid excessive multiplication of styles (which is the other pitfall to full DF). Improvement is the use of list styles. I am afraid I don’t see alternatives: you already have the Customize and Position tabs.

B&N is DF. DF is never “linked” to a paragraph style, it overrides it by hiding the changed attributes. The idea of DF-ing one list item through Bullets & Numbering seems to me non-sensical (pardon me if my understanding is wrong) because B&N has a “global” range: it describes a whole list appearance. Trying to use it for a “local” single-item application removes the notion of consolidated global consistency.

Chapter numbering is indeed built upon list styling. It uses an internal “protected” list style. “Mixing”, here, is the fact to apply another list style on headings while the corresponding paragraph styles are still assigned in Tools>Chapter Numbering. You create a conflict between the internal list and your user list.

You can perfectly create independent headings associated with a user list style but you must do it with paragraph styles not designated in Tools>Chapter Numbering. This is the way to have numbered chapter and lettered annexes in the same document.

The last sentence is wrong. Paragraph styles are used exclusively for the “geometric” aspect and typographical properties of a paragraph. Hierarchical numbering is a matter of list styles. The confusion (or difficulty) may come from the fact that the chapter numbering list style is hidden from user and protected against spurious interaction.

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